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Transcript of Robert
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[Terrence McNally participated from his home in Manhattan. As always, most of the typos and misspellings have been cleaned up and a few punctuation marks added for the sake of clarity.] [RobertArmin] Good evening. Once again, welcome to the Fynsworth Alley chat room. For those interested in the history of the contemporary theatre, tonight's guest is about as prestigious as it gets. [RobertArmin] Terrence McNally had his first New York production in 1964. [RobertArmin] Since then, he has become one of the finest and most honored playwrights in the American theatre... [RobertArmin] winning no less than four Tony Awards for both plays and musicals. [RobertArmin] Not to mention a host of other honors as well. [RobertArmin] Good evening, Terrence. [TerrenceMcNally] Hi [RobertArmin] Your career, it seems, has encompassed all areas of the theatre. [RobertArmin] In recent years, you have ventured into both musicals and opera! [TerrenceMcNally] Plays, musicals, operas and I'm working on a ballet [RobertArmin] You write the story for the ballet, I take it. [RobertArmin] Who is choreographing? [TerrenceMcNally] I'm trying to, for ABT with Robert Hill as choreographer [RobertArmin] Obviously, you welcome all challenges. [RobertArmin] Let's talk first about your most recent musical... [RobertArmin] A Man of No Importance. [TerrenceMcNally] I think of them as opportunities to communicate on different levels [TerrenceMcNally] Man of No Importance was a beautiful experience.... [RobertArmin] You had worked with Ahrens and Flaherty on Ragtime, of course. [RobertArmin] A beautiful show. [TerrenceMcNally] until the critics decided it wasn't of much importance [RobertArmin] Whose idea was it to approach that particular film? [TerrenceMcNally] Mine. The moment I saw it I said that should be a project for me and Stephen and Lynn [TerrenceMcNally] They didn't agree at first [RobertArmin] It's an interesting choice because, metaphorically at least, the leading man is a character who doesn't "sing" in real life. [RobertArmin] And you found a way of making him quite eloquent. [TerrenceMcNally] Yes, but he has so much emotion hidden within him that he struggles with and his little theatre gives him the opportunity [TerrenceMcNally] I loved his character and Roger Rees embodied him 100000% [RobertArmin] I agree. [RobertArmin] I very much hope the show starts being performed now that the cast album is available. [TerrenceMcNally] I couldn't believe the critics were so cool to his performance. We're all still in shock. [RobertArmin] It's a perfect show for "community" theatres and regional theatres, as well. [TerrenceMcNally] San Francisco is doing it next fall [RobertArmin] Terrific. I can visit my family again. [TerrenceMcNally] A professional production. Strong interest from England [RobertArmin] If you had anything to change about the show, given hindsight, is there anything? [TerrenceMcNally] Good question. Probably no. Though 2 songs were cut that I ADORED. [RobertArmin] When I saw the show, I felt that you were attempting a different form of musical theatre. [RobertArmin] Much more of a drama with music than even a traditional musical play. [RobertArmin] There was little attempt to go for "showstoppers." And the show didn't need them. [TerrenceMcNally] It seemed the form that was "right" FOR that particular story [RobertArmin] None of your musical shows have been the least bit conventional. [TerrenceMcNally] we loved working together on RAGTIME but we wanted to write something much more intimate [RobertArmin] When you did The Rink with Kander and Ebb, you created what was basically a two-hander with a male chorus. [RobertArmin] Did that script happen before or after Chita Rivera was involved? And did casting Liza Minnelli alter your direction? [TerrenceMcNally] That was a show written to a pre-existing score. I'll never make that mistake again [TerrenceMcNally] Chita was involved before I got involved. Liza came on at the last minute [RobertArmin] Interesting. I think I had read that at some point. [RobertArmin] Did you have much flexibility at all with the score? [RobertArmin] Or were the relationships pretty well set? [TerrenceMcNally] Albert Innaurato wrote the first version. The score was pretty much set when I signed on [RobertArmin] Ah hah. [TerrenceMcNally] The relationships were already there in their duets. I came up with a new plot but the situation stayed pretty much the same [RobertArmin] Have there been any changes to the script for subsequent productions? [TerrenceMcNally] No. We did a slightly revised version for a workshop but mainly we put it back into one act, which we changed in NYC previews to two [RobertArmin] I remember seeing a small production in Queens (or Brooklyn) with Bonnie Perlman that made it clear that the show is quite effective even without Chita and Liza. [TerrenceMcNally] Thank you. We loved that show and audiences seemed to UNTIL the reviews [TerrenceMcNally] Then it was a fight every night. [RobertArmin] All to common, unfortunately. [TerrenceMcNally] People whispered to each other "I like it" like they were ashamed [RobertArmin] And when Liza left, Stockard Channing couldn't bring in the audiences. Too bad. [TerrenceMcNally] She was wonderful. So was Mary Testa, Liza's understudy who went on A LOT! [RobertArmin] Your next musical, Kiss of the Spider Woman, had a very frustrating gestation period. [RobertArmin] My wife and I saw the show at SUNY. [RobertArmin] It was sooooo different there. [RobertArmin] I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on that original version [TerrenceMcNally] We knew in Purchase, knew it needed a lot of work. How big our mistakes were. Garth Drabinsky gave us a miraculous second chance at it [TerrenceMcNally] We didn't need the critics to tell us the work we had to do. It was supposed to be a workshop situation [TerrenceMcNally] but it got reviewed [TerrenceMcNally] and without Garth that show would have sunk without a trace [RobertArmin] Yes, I remember. That caused quite a stink - and it killed the series there, unfortunately. [TerrenceMcNally] Yes, "safe" places in the NYC theatre are increasingly scarce [RobertArmin] I think the biggest problem in Purchase was the "film" sequences. Prince had directed them as somewhat "tacky" and the audience might not have understood that it was the "film" that was tacky and not the Kander and Ebb number. [RobertArmin] There was much too much difference between "real" and "reel." [TerrenceMcNally] True. Also the film sequences told a sequential story which the audience couldn't follow. [TerrenceMcNally] Chita was a big difference, too, of course. [TerrenceMcNally] And Brent Carver [RobertArmin] How was the decision made to go so completely different for the Toronto production? [RobertArmin] Completely reconceived. [TerrenceMcNally] Easily reached, the decision, and Garth trusted us to do it and came up with the money. I miss him! [RobertArmin] He was, of course, instrumental in the creation of your next musical, Ragtime. How did you become involved in that? [TerrenceMcNally] He called and asked me to write the book. I said yes at once. [RobertArmin] Your book is, of course, quite different from the movie. What was the evolution of the final script? [RobertArmin] By that, I mean, did you have a clear vision of where you were going, or did it evolve through trial and error? [TerrenceMcNally] I did a treatment of my approach. The style, etc. Doctorow approved it. Then it was a go [TerrenceMcNally] Yes, I had a clear vision and if Doctorow hadn't liked it I didn't want to work on the project. I respect that book so much! [TerrenceMcNally] He hated the movie and bad mouthed it everywhere. I didn't want him doing that to my work [RobertArmin] I can understand that. Your work on the script was extraordinary. The way you tied everything together beautifully. [TerrenceMcNally] He didn't have script approval, just approval of my approach. [TerrenceMcNally] He was very pleased with the show. [TerrenceMcNally] That made all of us happy. [RobertArmin] What have you done, if anything, to make the show work in more intimate theatres? [RobertArmin] Any changes at all? [TerrenceMcNally] Nothing with the score or text. Just doubling the "celebrities" with members of the ensemble and a reduced orchestration [TerrenceMcNally] Evelyn, Emma, Houdini, etc. are no longer played by "principals" [TerrenceMcNally] Makes sense and a tighter show, though I loved the size of the original company. But the power of the story is still there [RobertArmin] Do you think New York will be seeing the more intimate version? [TerrenceMcNally] One day, yes. I'm sure there will be a major revival one day. I am positive that RAGTIME is a great show [RobertArmin] I agree. Do you have another musical in the works? [TerrenceMcNally] One that will last. [TerrenceMcNally] I don't say that often. I had no idea if Frankie and Johnny would "work" again [RobertArmin] I think all four of these shows will last. A sign of a good book! [RobertArmin] I'm glad you mentioned Frankie and Johnny. [TerrenceMcNally] Thank you. I hope you're right. I feel a good book is terribly important [RobertArmin] Because I wanted to move on to some of your dramatic works. [TerrenceMcNally] But and it's a big but, without a good score you don't have a good musical. [RobertArmin] And, of course, you've worked with two of the best teams around! [TerrenceMcNally] The music is paramount, no matter what any bookwriter says [TerrenceMcNally] Yes, they are both great teams. I learned a lot from both of them [RobertArmin] Your career as a playwright started during the early sixties. When did you actually write your first play? [TerrenceMcNally] I have worked with most of the best talents and I count my blessings nightly [TerrenceMcNally] My first play AND THINGS THAT GO BUMP IN THE NIGHT opened on Broadway in the early 60's [RobertArmin] Was that the play with Eileen Heckart? [TerrenceMcNally] Yes. Michael Cacoyannis directed. Robert Drivas co-starred [RobertArmin] What was the incident, if it's true, when someone from the audience actually came up and slapped Heckart? [TerrenceMcNally] No, he leapt up on the stage and tried to pull her off it, down into the orchestra level. [TerrenceMcNally] Drivas pushed him off and they grappled in the front aisles. [RobertArmin] What prompted that?!! [TerrenceMcNally] He just started ranting the play was immoral and an artist like Miss Heckart should have nothing to do with such depravity [RobertArmin] Many of your early plays certainly "stretched the envelope." About the time that Hair moved to Broadway, you wrote a one-act called Sweet Eros, in which the leading lady was naked (and tied to a chair) through most of the play. [RobertArmin] It's not a scenario that would go over easily today. [TerrenceMcNally] The good old days, the 60's . Experimentation! Shock! Outrage! [TerrenceMcNally] Corpus Christi brought it all back home again [RobertArmin] Tell us about that. [TerrenceMcNally] Not much to tell. Catholics decided the play was offensive [TerrenceMcNally] And they ordered their troops to picket [TerrenceMcNally] I don't think any of them had read the play. [RobertArmin] And Manhattan Theatre Club backed out of doing the show, at first [TerrenceMcNally] Just rumors started by a pig at the NY Post by the name of... I don't remember... somebody the 3rd [TerrenceMcNally] He went on to write a play. God punished him good for that one! [RobertArmin] Ah [RobertArmin] LOL [RobertArmin] Clearly, your relationship with MTC was not damaged. [TerrenceMcNally] Ward Morehouse, the pig's name was. His grandfather got Mae West arrested for SEX [RobertArmin] Really! [RobertArmin] I know about Mae West, but I didn't know the guy’s name. [TerrenceMcNally] Yes, he was a columnist in the 20's and decided her play SEX was obscene. [RobertArmin] I'm never quite sure I understand the thinking of these moralists... [RobertArmin] If they keep their mouths shut most plays will run their course very quickly. [TerrenceMcNally] It's not thinking, it's knee-jerk reacting [RobertArmin] I sometimes wonder if the Catholic League has money in certain plays and films! [TerrenceMcNally] CC played Chicago without an incident and that town has a huge Catholic population [RobertArmin] By complaining, they boost the box office. [TerrenceMcNally] It's not a way I prefer to sell tickets. [RobertArmin] Chris Durang went through a similar experience with Sister Mary... [TerrenceMcNally] So did John Steinbeck!!!!!! with the play of GRAPES OF WRATH [TerrenceMcNally] I'm being pilloried for CC as we speak in Cleveland [RobertArmin] Today, you are quite open about being gay, but what was it like during the sixties. Were you always as outspoken as you are today? [TerrenceMcNally] I think it is so brave of these small theatres to do the play knowing there's a chance of all this fuss [TerrenceMcNally] Yes, I was always out and I have always, when I wanted to, written about gay men (but not too many women) [TerrenceMcNally] BUMP had gay characters and they even had sex. This was bad form in 64. [RobertArmin] Society certainly caught up with you in the 70s and 80s, that's for sure. [RobertArmin] Which of your early plays do you think hold up best? [TerrenceMcNally] I think people are more comfortable with theatre that talks about subjects that were previously taboo [TerrenceMcNally] I don't know about "holding up". I don't re-read them. That's up to the theatre community to decided. [TerrenceMcNally] I would like to see some of them again, for sure, THE RITZ, A PERFECT GANESH, but it's out of my hands. [RobertArmin] I asked Chris Durang this, so let me try it on you. Considering the whole body of your work, which ones would you most expect to be remembered for? [TerrenceMcNally] I most expect to be remembered by F&J [TerrenceMcNally] because of the movie and the revival [TerrenceMcNally] But I want to see Ganesh again before I die [RobertArmin] You were, I assume, pleased with the revival of F&J [TerrenceMcNally] Enormously, Hugely, Blown away by it [RobertArmin] I was distressed to see that the change in cast couldn't keep it going. [TerrenceMcNally] We all were [RobertArmin] It would have been interesting to see a whole variety of performers attempt it. [TerrenceMcNally] There's talk of a London production with some interesting casting being bandied about. My lips, of course, are sealed! [RobertArmin] Of course... ;-) [RobertArmin] Were you pleased with the film version? [TerrenceMcNally] Very. But it was a completely different approach to the story. I wrote the screenplay [TerrenceMcNally] Michelle Pfeiffer was heart-breaking [RobertArmin] She's a highly underrated actress, I think. [TerrenceMcNally] And Nathan Lane and Kate Nelligan were wonderful new faces in the story [TerrenceMcNally] Al, of course, was great and probably why the movie got made [RobertArmin] You and Nathan Lane go back a long way. When did you first work with him? [TerrenceMcNally] THE LISBON TRAVIATA. Okay, I'd like that one done again, too. One of my best, for sure. [TerrenceMcNally] I saw Nathan in a play and said that guy is a star. [TerrenceMcNally] After Lisbon he was [RobertArmin] Fortunately, I did get to see Nathan in Lisbon Traviata. That was a superb combination of the great play with the right actor. [TerrenceMcNally] Talk about a classic performance! [RobertArmin] I just did... [TerrenceMcNally] I never once ever gave Nathan in all our plays a note or a correction. He just "gets" me. He gets Mel Brooks, too [RobertArmin] You have certainly given him his best roles, that's for sure (with a bit of help from Brooks). [TerrenceMcNally] In fact, great actors like Nathan or Zoe or Chita or Christine or Kathy or..... NEVER need notes. [TerrenceMcNally] They just do their work brilliantly and with no fuss [RobertArmin] The highest compliment of all, I think. [TerrenceMcNally] Stars are NO maintenance. Divas are nothing BUT. [TerrenceMcNally] There is a BIG difference [RobertArmin] Ironic that several of your key plays have been ABOUT divas. [RobertArmin] Master Class was so good. [TerrenceMcNally] Just one, yes? Master Class? [RobertArmin] Well, Lisbon Traviata was "about" a diva, in a way. [TerrenceMcNally] I guess Nathan played a diva in Lisbon. [RobertArmin] And it talked about Callas a great deal. [TerrenceMcNally] There will be nothing more on the subject of Maria Callas from TMcN [RobertArmin] Hah. What was the inspiration for putting Callas on stage? [TerrenceMcNally] Seeing a master class at Juilliard. [TerrenceMcNally] I was struck about the theatricality [TerrenceMcNally] Leontyne Price says I owe her royalties. [TerrenceMcNally] It was her class [TerrenceMcNally] And I wanted to write for Zoe again after GANESH [TerrenceMcNally] And then I saw Nathan doing a scene from LISBON and it all came together. Zoe as Callas giving a Master Class. [RobertArmin] You have certainly been blessed with great star performances. Zoe Caldwell was brilliant. [TerrenceMcNally] Now THAT is inspiration. Wish it happened more often [RobertArmin] And Audra McDonald, as well. [TerrenceMcNally] Audra, well, we'll all say we lived in the Age of Audra. She can do anything. [RobertArmin] I know you've often written with specific performers in mind. What performers would you like to write for? [TerrenceMcNally] My dream is for her to sing DEAD MAN WALKING. [RobertArmin] Has that opened yet? [RobertArmin] I know you were working on it. [TerrenceMcNally] Yes, two years ago in San Francisco, and this September at New York City Opera. It's had many productions already [TerrenceMcNally] Australia and France and Canada are next [RobertArmin] I knew about NYCO, but had missed the earlier productions. [TerrenceMcNally] Audra was born to sing Sister Helen [TerrenceMcNally] Keep your fingers crossed [RobertArmin] Has she been approached about it? [TerrenceMcNally] Yes, and considered it but the time commitment just wasn't realistic for her at that time in her life [RobertArmin] Well, then my fingers are crossed. [TerrenceMcNally] Susan Graham created the role magnificently [RobertArmin] Well, I will make sure I see it when it's here in NYC. [RobertArmin] You were fortunate enough to write the screenplays of three of your plays. [RobertArmin] Are there other screenplays that haven't been produced yet? [TerrenceMcNally] Yes, but I still would like to try my hand at an "original" [TerrenceMcNally] My one and only unproduced screenplay is an epic on the life of Puccini. It would cost a billion to film. [RobertArmin] Well, "musicals" are coming back in. And that Puccini fella did a show with Baz Luhrman, so he's hot. [RobertArmin] Reader "Prong" writes: I saw the Ritz just recently. Still hilarious. [RobertArmin] Which reminds me of the time Rita Moreno won the Tony for "Supporting" actress and she wondered who she was supporting since she was the only woman. [TerrenceMcNally] I was happy for Rita she won and didn't understand anything else [RobertArmin] So, given the great canon of your work, what are you looking forward to the most? Plays, musicals, operas, ballets, everything? [TerrenceMcNally] Everything but especially THE STENDAHL SYNDROME and DEDICATION, two plays in the works, and THE VISIT next season [RobertArmin] Yes, how is The Visit going? [RobertArmin] Is Chita definitely set now? [TerrenceMcNally] We're itching to go into rehearsal. Chita is "set" [RobertArmin] If ever there was a right writer for a project, you and The Visit are a perfect match. [TerrenceMcNally] I hope so. I loved working on it and John and Fred have written an amazing score, quite unlike anything they've ever done [RobertArmin] Curly asks: How did it go in Chicago and were you disappointed to lose Angela Lansbury? Did casting Chita alter any of your writing? [TerrenceMcNally] It went well in Chicago and won a Best Musical award. Losing Angela was sad, of course, but now the role belongs 1000% to Chita. [TerrenceMcNally] They're BOTH the first lady of the American Musical, you agree? [RobertArmin] Well, anything Chita does she makes her own! [RobertArmin] And yes, I agree, we have more than one First! [TerrenceMcNally] That's a great star AND actress/singer/dancer for you [RobertArmin] Ben Bagley told me about the time she wanted to change her name to Chita O'Hara. He was not amused! [TerrenceMcNally] I can see why! [RobertArmin] He gave her the chance to show her comedy chops - she did what was probably the first impersonation of Marilyn Monroe in the theatre. [TerrenceMcNally] Wait'll you see her "dramatic" chops in THE VISIT [RobertArmin] Can't wait. [RobertArmin] A few more questions before we wrap it up for this evening. [TerrenceMcNally] SHOOT [RobertArmin] Coming from the South and, incidentally, being gay, did Tennessee Williams have a strong influence on you? And what other writers did you admire growing up? [TerrenceMcNally] I love Tennessee Williams' plays but I wouldn't call him an influence. Shakespeare has always been the writer I most admire - and learn from [RobertArmin] Curly asks: Do you write in French Scenes? [TerrenceMcNally] I don't know what French scenes are [RobertArmin] I believe it has to do with writing from one entrance to another - or the phone ringing - or some other incident. [RobertArmin] It's somebody's idea of play construction. [RobertArmin] At least in terms of Shakespeare. [TerrenceMcNally] Then I don't. I tend to let the chips fall where they may. I "improvise" at the keyboard until I get it right. [RobertArmin] Well, from the evidence of Ragtime, Kiss of the Spider Woman and other shows that had long evolutionary periods, you have certainly demonstrated your ability to rethink your ideas to great advantage. [RobertArmin] You don't get locked into only one solution. [TerrenceMcNally] I study Chekhov for the secrets of dramatic construction - not Ibsen or the well made guys. [TerrenceMcNally] Don't get me wrong. I revere Ibsen [TerrenceMcNally] I just don't want to stay in one set so long [RobertArmin] But I agree that Ibsen was a bit too formulaic. [TerrenceMcNally] I like outdoor plays and open stages to fill with my imagination [RobertArmin] The "well-made play." [TerrenceMcNally] Any successful play - holds an audience's interest - is well made. Period [RobertArmin] Well, we all look forward to seeing how your imagination fills up the stage for many years to come. [TerrenceMcNally] Thanks. I do, too. [RobertArmin] One last question. On the question of the reduction of plays to two or even single players. And plays that are made up almost entirely of monologues. Since you used that technique early on, do you think it's a bad or good trend that it is returning [TerrenceMcNally] It entirely depends on the dramatic situation. I don't think it's a trend and no real playwright is going to write one man shows just to get a production more easily. [RobertArmin] No "real playwright" is the key, I guess. [RobertArmin] And you are certainly as REAL as it gets. [TerrenceMcNally] I think people have tired of trying to solve the immense problems of exposition and settle for narration and small casts instead [TerrenceMcNally] Exposition is the single hardest thing to do as a playwright. [TerrenceMcNally] It's hard but you have to keep slugging away at it [RobertArmin] Well, if Ragtime isn't an example of 'exposition' I never saw one. Great writing, [RobertArmin] Thank you so much for joining me this evening. [RobertArmin] I have admired your writing for nearly forty years. [TerrenceMcNally] Thank you. It's been funny and pardon the typing [RobertArmin] You type very well. [TerrenceMcNally] I meant, fun not funny [RobertArmin] Oh, one last question. [RobertArmin] Are there any plans to record or do a video of Frankie and Johnny? [TerrenceMcNally] Not that I know of. Good idea though! [TerrenceMcNally] It's at the Lincoln Center Library though [RobertArmin] Well, Fynsworth has recorded several plays. It's something to consider. I have always loved recorded plays. Sets don't matter. [RobertArmin] The imagination is all. [TerrenceMcNally] I'll drink to that! So long and good night [RobertArmin] Good night, and thanks again. Looking forward to another "VISIT." [TerrenceMcNally] see you there! [RobertArmin] Next week, my guest will be Michael Rupert. See you then. [RobertArmin] Good night. |
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