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Transcript of Robert
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[RobertArmin] Good evening and welcome once again to the Fynsworth Alley chat room. [RobertArmin] Tonight, a conversation about what I believe is THE greatest Broadway production, at least in my lifetime -- FOLLIES. [RobertArmin] The original 1971 production directed by Harold Prince and Michael Bennett. [RobertArmin] My guest tonight was there, from beginning to end, and he has recently published a book about the experience. [RobertArmin] Ted Chapin, good evening. [TedChapin] I guess that's my cue. It's great to be here. [RobertArmin] I just read your book over the Thanksgiving holiday and it was a real treat. [RobertArmin] "Everything Was Possible - The Birth of the Musical FOLLIES" is the title [RobertArmin] I was in college at Montclai, New Jersey at the time and was lucky enough to see the show five times in New York. For those who wonder if it really was as good as everyone says, I say "better." [RobertArmin] And for those who haven't read about it yet, why don’t you offer a brief explanation of how you got involved in the production. [TedChapin] Sure. I was a Junior in college, had seen COMPANY the year before, loved it, and just wanted to be around those people. So I talked the administration of the college into allowing me to observe this new musical which I knew would be exciting. I guess I put the squeeze on both Hal Prince and Connecticut College to allow me to observe FOLLIES and to write a report for college credit. That's how I came to work on the show. The fact that the show was over budget gave me the opportunity [RobertArmin] You mention in the book that the first request for your services was to fetch coffee -- truly a "go-fer" [RobertArmin] but you soon learned that being a production assistant put you right in the heart of things [RobertArmin] As the show was developing in rehearsals, you were the person who typed the new dialogue and lyrics... [RobertArmin] So you were one of the very first to see Stephen Sondheim's new lyrics as they were written. [TedChapin] Yes, that was a blast, although Sondheim was very particular about how his lyrics were typed [RobertArmin] It's amazing to realize that most of the Loveland sequence had not even been written when rehearsals started! [TedChapin] The story I end the book with was great - when I gave Sondheim a tape of the score as he played it for the cast on the first day of rehearsal - and he didn't remember having so many songs to write [RobertArmin] One of the last songs to go into the show -- in Boston -- was Yvonne DeCarlo's replacement for "Can That Boy Fox Trot." What was it like seeing the lyrics of “I'm Still Here" for the first time? [TedChapin] Well, everyone in the company knew a new song was in the works, but no one knew what it was going to be like - a blues song, a modern sound, even whether it would take place in the present or the past. So when I was handed the musical manuscript of "I'm Here" (as it was originally called) I was amazed not only by the lyrics, but how well they scanned. Then as I was typing, I realized how amazing they were, even though I didn't know how the music went. [RobertArmin] And speaking of DeCarlo, she took a shine to you (you charming young man, you), didn't she? [RobertArmin] larbec writes: Ted, I'm about 100 pages into the book, and am loving it. Did you ever find out what that pin was about at the Copacabana? [TedChapin] Yes, she did. But, alas, that's about as far as it goes. The other day I ran into a Broadway Producer/General Manager who said, "Ted, I read your book. It's wonderful. Did you fuck Yvonne De Carlo?" I asked him how he wanted me to answer... [RobertArmin] Truthfully, unfortunately. [TedChapin] Re: the pin - no, only that I thought it was for the Italian American Civil Rights League which, I believe is what the Mafia calls itself... [RobertArmin] That story is a kick -- about the pin. Are you sorry now that you returned it? [TedChapin] Hell no! [RobertArmin] :-) [TedChapin] The good part of the story is that De Carlo didn't get my name right, so Lord only knows what I wrote down when I was given the pin... [RobertArmin] We're going to chat about your involvement with the Rodgers and Hammerstein office a bit later, but right now dante has a question about that area of your life: i see that "the king and I" will be touring this summer. do you know who will be anna and the king?? [TedChapin] I think Stefanie Powers will play Anna - she did the tour in England and got great reviews. [RobertArmin] Great! I saw here in APPLAUSE and she was charming. [TedChapin] I don't think the King is cast yet. [RobertArmin] Why do you think that APPLAUSE has created so strong a "cult" following? [RobertArmin] I meant FOLLIES! [RobertArmin] I knew even then that this was a unique and special show. [RobertArmin] One that, indeed, could not possibly be recreated today at today's costs. [TedChapin] I hope you meant FOLLIES - I never liked APPLAUSE! I think the sheer theatricality of the original production is what captured those who loved it so. That set, those costumes, the cast, the staging, the choreography - it was all full of such theatrical life that it blew people away. The leads are in trouble, and those that don't like the show never got beyond that. But I vote for the theatricality of the original for its cult status. [TedChapin] The cost would make it unbelievably expensive today - Florence Klotz told me she didn't think the original costumes could be created today for less that $2mil. [RobertArmin] But, as you pointed out in your book, many of those costumes are still floating around in the costume rental shops! [RobertArmin] Do you think it would be possible to recreate the original production -- or would you want to? I don't think any of the recent revivals have come close. [TedChapin] I wish I knew where they all were. Alexis Smith's cape from the opening scene is in the collection of the Museum of the City of New York, but I'd love to know if there are still costumes at Western in LA [TedChapin] I had an idea of asking Garth Drabinsky about recreating the original physical production - before he went belly-up. He is the only producer I know who might have taken the chance. [RobertArmin] I would love to have Graciele Daniele and others involved in the original production recreate Bennett's choreography and staging -- maybe for City Opera. Or better yet -- at the MET! [RobertArmin] Just wishful thinking! [RobertArmin] I still think it would make a great movie musical, too, but Rob Marshall is already starting work on a non-musical film -- shades of Lenny (for Bob Fosse). [TedChapin] There's a plot afoot to do something that would involve recreating the original choreography using many members of the original cast - you know the Young Four did a concert in Ann Arbor last January playing the Old Four. I was there - it was pretty amazing. [RobertArmin] I just ran into Harvey Evans yesterday! I would loved to have been there in Ann Arbor. [TedChapin] I think Rob Marshall should indeed tackle FOLLIES - let him make a couple of movie/movies, then return to do another musical. [RobertArmin] I had such a crush on Marti Rolph! [RobertArmin] Richdolly asks: Do you think any of the material written for the London production is equal to the original material? [TedChapin] She's still gorgeous - there was a brief clip of her on NY1 ON STAGE this weekend singing “Too Many Mornings” with Kurt Peterson - it may still have another airing tonight. [RobertArmin] I'll set my recorder as soon as Kiss Me, Kate ends! [TedChapin] The London production was weird. I was there on opening night, and was amused that the reaction was the same as NY - half the audience stunned, half the audience mystified. I like "Ah, But Underneath" but I don't think any of the London stuff is as good as the original. But then I'm a fan of "Uptown, Downtown"... [RobertArmin] The original production had such a crazy reaction from some people. [TedChapin] How crazy? [RobertArmin] While I marveled at the Loveland sequence as dramatic genius -- others thought that the show had finally turned into NO, NO NANETTE! [RobertArmin] They stopped thinking and just enjoyed the spectacle. [TedChapin] There were always audience members who didn't get the connection between the Follies sequence and the characters. [RobertArmin] Of course, the cast album on Capitol didn't help matters. When I first heard it I had no idea how the songs fit into the show. [RobertArmin] Then I saw it and was dazzled. [TedChapin] What a shame about that cast album. And of course the insult was when TWO GENTLEMEN got a two LP set... [RobertArmin] If only Dick Jones had recorded a bit more. It's interesting that he hated "One More Kiss" and left it off the album purposely. Today, it is recognized for the great song it is. [TedChapin] I think Dick Jones would have preferred to record the whole score, but we'll never know why he didn't like “One More Kiss.” [RobertArmin] I was performing in a college play the night of the Tony's and was listening to the Tony's in the green room. When TWO GENTS stole the Best Musical award at the end -- wow, what a shock! [TedChapin] It was a pretty surreal night - the first Tony for Michael Bennett and the first time (I think) a show won all three design awards. Of course, Lighting had only recently become a Tony category [RobertArmin] For me, the biggest disappointment was that John McMartin wasn't even nominated. I still think he was brilliant as Benjamin Stone and I don't know anyone today who could improve on his work. [RobertArmin] This from the man who had created Corporal Jester in LITTLE MARY SUNSHINE and Oscar in SWEET CHARITY! [TedChapin] His was one of those performances that was so underrated, and yet so good. He's such a pro. And he was the quintessential Ben Stone. [RobertArmin] Richdolly writes: Your book was probably the best theater read since Frank Rich's Ghostlight. Just terrific! One of my favorite parts was when you mentioned the hanger that was inserted into programs at the Colonial prior to it's Boston run. I have a copy of that, framed, hanging on my wall. It is amazing to think it went to press before John McMartin was signed! [TedChapin] One does wonder what Jon Cypher would have been like - he was the original Ben Stone. [TedChapin] I grabbed three copies of that - one I gave to Frank Rich who collects them, one I gave to Cameron Mackintosh for the London opening (It's framed in his office) and one I kept for myself! [RobertArmin] Interesting that Barbara Cook was seriously considered for Sally, too. Of course, she did get to play the role a decade later at Lincoln Center. But Dorothy Collins was heartbreaking in the original. [TedChapin] And a wonderful person, great with the cast. And who knew she had asthma and had to use an inhaler often during the run. Marti Rolph told me some nights she had to sing Dorothy's part in “Too Many Mornings” when She (Dorothy) didn’t have the breath. [RobertArmin] My God! I had no idea about Marti. That is amazing! [RobertArmin] I remember when the show played the Shubert in L.A, Marti played both young Sally and Young Heidi! [TedChapin] There are also wonderful stories of cast members having to cue John McMartin in a variety of ways. [RobertArmin] She was a terrific talent. [RobertArmin] Harvey tells me she is now a school teacher in Connecticut. I was never so lucky with my teachers. [TedChapin] Still is - now teaching grade school in Greenwich, Connecticut. But she can still sing, and all of us who had crushes on her still do... [RobertArmin] h0llyw00d1 asks: What does Ted think of the recent revival? [TedChapin] The mistake I think they made was to feature the dark underbelly of the piece. It's there in spades - and it doesn't need to be underscored. I was also amused that the cast was almost uniformly 10-20 years older than the original cast [RobertArmin] Yes, baby boomers think "old" is seventy. In 1971, Alexis Smith was considered old in her 40s. [TedChapin] And when Frank Rich pointed out in his foreword that I am probably older today than many of the original cast members, it was a bit of a shock... [RobertArmin] Tell me about it! [RobertArmin] I was such a stagedoor Johnny in those days. Of course, I didn't have the guts to approach Marti at the time, but we became friends later. [TedChapin] I remember one of the Vegas showgirls complaining that there were no stage door johnnys in 1971...at least for her! [RobertArmin] My god, those showgirls were terrifying to a little hick like me! LOL [TedChapin] They were pretty tall, pretty fish-out-of-water, and not the brightest gang in the world. [RobertArmin] One thing missing from recent revivals was just how extraordinary the image of those showgirls was at the beginning of the show, [RobertArmin] And throughout. [RobertArmin] And that music at the beginning... amazing how many tries it took Bennett to finally get it right. [TedChapin] That's true - Prince and Bennett knew what they were doing by getting those showgirls - and matching them with the tallest of the Bennett dancers to give those wonderful moments of ghost-like moments from Ziegfeld shows of the past - and some of those costumes were directly from the old Ziegfeld show. [RobertArmin] h0llyw00d1 writes: If Ted could cast a new version of it or even a film version - who would be his dream cast?? [TedChapin] I often wonder who the people would be today, and even if they exist. Look at 1971 when they went back 10+ years to the days of Hollywood musicals - 20+ actually. Who's around today, and where would you go? TV? I guess I'm avoiding the question...anyone have any ideas? [RobertArmin] Are you privy to any conversations about a movie version? [TedChapin] No. I did send a copy of the book to Rob Marshall and got a wonderful note back from him. Otherwise, I don't know what might be happening. [RobertArmin] It's fascinating to imagine the film that Prince had envisioned -- with Joan Crawford, Bette Davis and other Hollywood legends making cameo appearances -- though not singing one would hope! [TedChapin] But even then there were great movie stars from the past. Who's around today? [RobertArmin] Unfortunately it was right at the time every movie musical was being dropped from studio plans. [RobertArmin] Mickey Rooney? [RobertArmin] lol [RobertArmin] Although he would be great doing “Rain on the Roof” with Jane Powell! [TedChapin] You're right. And Ann Miller was pretty great in the Paper Mill production. [RobertArmin] h0llyw00d1 suggests: Julia Roberts, Ashley Judd, Idina Menzel, Kristen Chenoweth [RobertArmin] Not my idea of legendary stars, unfortunately. [TedChapin] The original production was as great for the Ethel Shuttas, Mary McCartys, and Fifi D'Orsays as it was for the Alexis Smiths and Gene Nelsons. [RobertArmin] Betty Garret was superb in the Broadway revival. But I still remember her one woman show when she sang the definitive "I'm Still Here." She had REALLY lived that song. [TedChapin] But we're talking here about Hollywood people in their 80's... [RobertArmin] Right. [RobertArmin] It really is too late to capture the feel of the old Hollywood musicals. Tragically. [RobertArmin] Although, as h0llyw00d1 reminds me: I thought seeing Marge Champion was the ultimate treat [TedChapin] Could be. But then I'm an optimist - give the challenge to Jay Binder or some other Broadway casting guy and see what they’d come up with! [RobertArmin] Harrison Ford as Ben Stone? [TedChapin] I'd buy that. [RobertArmin] Of course, if we go back to the days of dubbing everyone (South Pacific, anyone), we could really come up with an A List of stars. [TedChapin] And Marni Nixon is still around... [RobertArmin] Right. Hugh Jackman might well be one of the few "names" who could do it all. [TedChapin] Well, he can do almost anything as far as I'm concerned. [RobertArmin] While I have you here, I would like to talk a bit about some of your other duties -- other than best-selling author! [RobertArmin] You are in charge of the Rodgers and Hammerstein office and you also serve on the Advisory Board of Encores! [TedChapin] Yes, both true [RobertArmin] In terms of Encores!, do you have any thoughts on the issue of Encores! moving toward more "hit" shows that don't really need to be rediscovered? [RobertArmin] After all, CAN-CAN has had many revivals. And BYE, BYE BIRDIE is starting another national tour next year. [RobertArmin] Of course, PARDON MY ENGLSH is EXACTLY the kind of show they should be doing. [TedChapin] Finding shows for Encores! has always been a challenge - and now we're in that odd position of either choosing shows by writers whose work has already been done - thereby everyone assuming the new shows are "lesser” - or looking to more obscure works and more well known ones. And there are, of course, different reasons for choosing each one. [TedChapin] PARDON MY ENGLISH is one that Gary Griffin who did THE NEW MOON last year is intrigued by. That's a good reason to try it. [RobertArmin] Is there a conscious effort to get another Broadway transfer or is that just the public's perception? [TedChapin] And I think Kathleen Marshall loved the idea of doing another "Mickey and Judy" show - and that's BYE BYE BIRDIE. [RobertArmin] I am, of course, delighted that WONDERFUL TOWN has received strong reviews and will probably run a while. [TedChapin] Encores! has never been about Broadway transfers, although it's great when that happens. [RobertArmin] coleporter (presumably not the real one) asks: Has "Silk Stockings" ever been seriously considered for Encores? (I keep hoping for it...) [TedChapin] Probably - there's a list of shows that gets considered every year - A TREE GROWS IN BROOKLY is still on it [RobertArmin] Have they ever found any of the original orchestrations? Rob has been very frustrated about not being able to do TREE. [RobertArmin] It s a gorgeous score. [RobertArmin] And it looks like Goodspeed's book may stick around. [TedChapin] There seem to be differences of opinion about the original orchestrations to TREE. Some orchestrations do exist - I guess the question is whether they are the originals or some reduction done for a tour or subsequent production. [RobertArmin] I guess we can be grateful that Rob Fisher is so particular. It makes the wait worth while! [TedChapin] He's the best - and only getting better. [RobertArmin] In terms of the R&H office, you have been involved in some controversial activities in the last few years. By that I mean, the "new books" for BOYS FROM SYRACUSE, FLOWER DRUM SONG, and other shows. Not to mention the unfortunate new book for ANNIE GET YOUR GUN. Do you keep the original books available for production or have any been retired by the new ones? [TedChapin] All the original books remain available for licensing. And we all hope we'll live long enough for the fashion of revising books to pass into oblivion - which isn’t to say that I'm not pleased we sanctioned some of those productions. Interestingly, ANNIE GET YOUR GUN was the most successful revival the office has licensed in terms of money. [RobertArmin] Well, of course, it was successful on Broadway, but is that version being licensed to amateur and stock groups? [TedChapin] Well, yes it is. Some of our customers like the sense of something "new" - and that's what Peter Stone's revision seems like to them. But then remember, the ANNIE that we have been licensing through the years is itself a revision done by Berlin and Dorothy Fields for the Music Theater of Lincoln Center in the 1960's [RobertArmin] I agree with you that the current trend towards revised books has gotten out of hand. Of course, I, myself, have written a new book for WHAT MAKES SAMMY RUN?, but the 1964 production was not notable for its original book. LOL [TedChapin] Yes, maybe, but I saw WHAT MAKES SAMMY RUN? twice! [RobertArmin] well, I hope you'll get a chance to see it again -- soon! [TedChapin] I'm ready. This could have been my hometown... [RobertArmin] I think new books for "flop" and "lost" shows makes sense, but I don't understand the logic in rewriting classics. [RobertArmin] BOYS FROM SYRACUSE worked beautifully at Encores! [RobertArmin] I admired David Hwang's script for FLOWER DRUM SONG very much, but I think if I were producing a production, I would like to try making Hammerstein's version work. [RobertArmin] But that's just my take. [TedChapin] Obviously this is a big subject for discussion. Some books go out of date, I suppose, and some have crossovers designed to cover scene changes which don't need to take place with today's sophisticated stagecraft. But the notion that all books are old fashioned is wrong minded. [RobertArmin] Have you been approached about putting together new book musicals with the old Rodgers and Hart songs? [TedChapin] Re: Flower Drum Song, the Hammerstein/Fields book does play today somewhat as a musical comedy - more so, actually, than any of the other R&H shows. Parts are pretty quaint. [TedChapin] Yes, we are approached often about a Crazy For You style show using Rodgers & Hart songs - one is in development with ClearChannel. [RobertArmin] I've long wanted to write a new book based on EVER GREEN, using the R & Hart song book. Especially rarities. [TedChapin] Using rarities would make sense, since you could put together a score which would be unknown to the majority of the theatergoing public. [RobertArmin] I still think "What Causes That?" was the best moment in CRAZY FOR YOU because it didn't have a history in most people's minds. [RobertArmin] It was entirely fresh. [TedChapin] Exactly. [RobertArmin] DavidofBHA asks: Ted, When is the cast recording of SWEET ADELINE due? [TedChapin] OK, David, is it "stump the band" time? The answer is after THE NEW MOON, which we are trying to get together for sometime this winter. Then comes SWEET ADELINE. [RobertArmin] Is DRG still involved or some other label? [TedChapin] We have a good working relation with Hugh Fordin, so that's who we are talking to. [RobertArmin] He has done great work so far. [RobertArmin] Although I do wish he could have gotten support for a DUBARRY WAS A LADY album! [RobertArmin] Talk about lost scores. [TedChapin] We've made some great albums together - CALL ME MADAM, PAL JOEY, THE BOYS FROM SYRACUSE, BABES IN ARMS, LOUISIANA PURCHASE... [RobertArmin] coleporter writes: Several months back I read an article about the discovery of some rare Lorenz Hart lyrics. Any updates on that? (Where are they now? Isn't there a dispute over legal ownership?) [TedChapin] Many of those lyrics were in the drawer of the desk in my office, and I handed them over to the Morgan Bank. They had a few in their vaults. Then a few years go by, and suddenly its: LOOK WHAT'S BEEN FOUND!! [RobertArmin] Michael Feinstein wrote about how the Secaucus discovery was ignored for years until the Times wrote an article MANY years later. [TedChapin] They belong, I imagine, to the Hart estate, which now is controlled by the UJA. [TedChapin] And the Times wrote the same article three years apart. Go figure. [RobertArmin] So, were these lyrics included in the complete lyrics book, or were they discovered too late? [TedChapin] Most are in the book - one in particular I remember finding in my desk is "Hands" on an oddly folded piece of paper. [RobertArmin] I remember calling the R&H office many years ago to ask if I could direct a stage production of Richard Rodgers' ANDROCLES AND THE LION. But the answer was -- no interest. [RobertArmin] Then, The York Theatre finally did the show as a Mufti. [RobertArmin] Have there been any new requests for productions? [TedChapin] We did clear the rights for a Musicals in Mufti version as part of the Rodgers Centennial, but the Shaw Estate is tough to deal with. Someday we may be able to get it prepared for a stage version. [RobertArmin] I would love to add about ten minutes of Shaw to Peter Stone's excellent book. A 90 minute musical would be perfect. [RobertArmin] It really is a charming show. [RobertArmin] In reference to Encores, h0llyw00d1 asks: How does the casting work- do you decide who you would like star wise for the concert and approach them, or do agents contact you? [TedChapin] Stone was interested in having at the book - then as I remember it, he kind of lost interest and said he thought the TV teleplay just about did the job. [RobertArmin] Yes, I spoke to him before his death and he seemed quite pleased with it as is. For the most part, I agree, although I think 70 minutes is a bit too concise. Were there ANY songs that Rodgers wrote and didn't use? [TedChapin] Re: Encores!, mostly the show is first chosen and then Jay Binder and his crew go after actors. Occasionally an actor is built into the process - Nathan Lane in DO RE MI, Martin Short in PROMISES PROMISES, but for the most part Encores tries to get lucky. [TedChapin] Re: ANDROCLES - No, all the songs written were used. [RobertArmin] DavidofBHA asks: Have you been able to recover any of the Rodgers and Hart movie scores from USC and other Hollywood sources? [TedChapin] David (I know him - hi) the score that has been retrieved is SPRING IS HERE, although not the entire orchestration. We're contemplating putting the missing pieces back, because the score is really quite wonderful. [RobertArmin] Do the family estates control the movie songs, or did the movie studios buy all rights? [TedChapin] The movie songs are, for the most part, still controlled by the composers' estates. Some were works written for hire - like a little Rodgers & Hart song called Blue Moon - but any movie that was based on a show, no question. [RobertArmin] Blue Moon. Really? Wow. [TedChapin] Win some, lose some. [RobertArmin] :-) [RobertArmin] I can't believe 90 minutes has flown by already. Ted, I want to thank you for taking the time to chat with us this evening. [TedChapin] It's been my pleasure. Bye! [RobertArmin] I can't recommend your book too highly. It is really like being there today! [TedChapin] Thanks. It's in its second printing! [RobertArmin] Everything Was Possible - The Birth of the Musical "Follies" [RobertArmin] Well, I'll have to get you to sign my FIRST EDITION!!!!! [TedChapin] Anytime [RobertArmin] I still marvel that it was Bill Rosenfield who gathered all the autographs from the cast of FOLLIES in Boston and New York. [RobertArmin] What fans we all were! [RobertArmin] Before we log off, why don't we give away one CD. [RobertArmin] We have an excellent jazz arrangement of the FOLLIES songs performed by the Trotter Trio. [RobertArmin] Can you come up with a trivia question for our audience? [TedChapin] Me? [RobertArmin] Sure. Something about FOLLIES. [RobertArmin] My breath is bated! [TedChapin] OK - Who had a brother who was in the original production, himself far better known than the brother in the show? [RobertArmin] Ah, I know. But I won't tell. [RobertArmin] His brother was very famous in musicals. [RobertArmin] Any guesses, folks? [RobertArmin] The two brothers once sang "We Love To Go Swimmin With Women" together in a film. [TedChapin] Now even I didn't know that! [RobertArmin] Boy, that was a tough one, Ted. [TedChapin] Want an easier one? [RobertArmin] It's true. The film was DEEP IN MY HEART. About Romberg. [RobertArmin] We have a winner! [RobertArmin] coleporter got it -- Fred Kelly! [RobertArmin] cole, send your name and address to me at fynsworth@showmusic.com and we'll send you the CD. [RobertArmin] Okay, thanks again, Ted. It was a lot of fun chatting about my all-time favorite show, Follies. [TedChapin] It's still a pretty great show. [RobertArmin] Good night, everyone. And go buy the book! |
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